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| James - 4/11/2004 7:50 PM
Cleanbiker - 4/11/2004 5:12 PM
Wouldn't it be nice to just hear a simple apology (and promise) from the land-trashing tree-murderers? JD
Which tree murderers are you talking about. The ones that helped Vernon Brandt kill those trees along Barking Dog Trail? Or the ones that started the fire that burned down Dean Sapp's place after the arson threats on the Colorado4x4 bb last October?
Statements like the above are exactly why everyone knows who you are, and what you are. Vernon Brandt did not kill those trees, and it's an established fact that the fire was caused by the wind knocking down power lines. Keep spreading your hateful venom and misinformation, "James", and I repeat, --we'll all just sit back and wait to see if the karma you're making from the things you've done, and do, will bring you what you deserve. JD |
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| Cleanbiker - 4/11/2004 8:31 PM
Statements like the above are exactly why everyone knows who you are, and what you are. Vernon Brandt did not kill those trees, and it's an established fact that the fire was caused by the wind knocking down power lines. Keep spreading your hateful venom and misinformation, "James", and I repeat, --we'll all just sit back and wait to see if the karma you're making from the things you've done, and do, will bring you what you deserve. JD
Do NOT threaten me. I am sick of you people and your threats.
It has been established that Vernon Brandt trespassed on private property and killed dozens of trees. He got away with it once but I don't think he will get away with it again..
It has been established that there were arson threats against Dean Sapp on the Colorado4x4 board the day before the fire broke out. It has been established that the off-road "recreationists" were overjoyed that people lost their homes in the Overland Fire. They have admitted it on this board. Tell me about hateful venom, "Cleanbiker". |
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| It has been established that Vernon Brandt trespassed on private property and killed dozens of trees. He got away with it once but I don't think he will get away with it again..
bos admits to his "forestry" fiasco,he is the one who did all the damage.VB just scooted that mess to one side to clear a trail.the sheriff did not see fit to charge him with anything.how do you explain that? |
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| mud slinger - 4/11/2004 9:11 PM
It has been established that Vernon Brandt trespassed on private property and killed dozens of trees.
Oh really? And that would be where/how? That "big lie" makes the least sense: Why would someone who is doing everything he can to keep what was a public road (for over 100 years) open to the public, do something like that? HE WOULDN'T.
mud slinger - 4/11/2004 9:11 PM
VB just scooted that mess to one side to clear a trail.the sheriff did not see fit to charge him with anything.how do you explain that?
Now _that's_ a good question! (with an obvious answer). |
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| James - 4/11/2004 9:04 PM
Cleanbiker - 4/11/2004 8:31 PM
--we'll all just sit back and wait to see if the karma you're making from the things you've done, and do, will bring you what you deserve. JD
Do NOT threaten me. I am sick of you people and your threats.
Time to look up the word --karma-- in your dictionary. My statement is not a threat. I honestly hope that everyone in the world gets all that they deserve. JD |
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| "karma" defined, in case your dictionary is an old one--
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/Karma.htm |
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| In case there are problems with the above link, essentially,
Karma "is the law of moral causation. It is action and reaction in the ethical realm. As ye sow, also shall ye reap." |
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| Let's talk about Karma. Here's a guy who says he never goes anywhere that is posted no trespassing, conspiring to trespass!!!
Shame on you, Mr. Daspit!
~~~
From: daspit@lasp.colorado.edu
Date: Monday, July 23, 2001 4:21 PM
To: vernonbrandt@aboutpubliclands.com
Subject: Re: Balarat Rd.
vernon brandt wrote:
> john thanks for asking. we have a lawyer workin the case right now. i'm so
> sorry that i can not talk further about it since i don't know you and the
> web is sometimes a deceitful place. would by more than happy to meet with
> you 9702220065.
I will definitely give you a call within a few days. I'm an ATV, dirtbike
and 4WD owner, and definitely support the cause of keeping the
roads and trails open, especially "in my own back yard".
> as for what can they do like you i know about the other way
> in have never been there myself but would love a guide if you have the time.
>
The only other ways I know are
1) a narrow singletrack further up the paved road above Jamestown, and
2) Entering from the Raymond-Riverside (still legal) 4wd road.
This road (trail) eventually gets too narrow for a jeep, but is
wide enough for an ATV it's entire length. It is wide enough for
a jeep in the direction past Miller Rock and down to the creek at the
end of the Ceran St. Vrain mountain bike trail (in fact there's a sign
there that says "4WD road ahead"), and across the creek up toward
the old Gresham townsite.
> "barking dog" is a section of co road 87. the county did not close the
> section of the road being desputed the serrifs office has told us that they
> will ticket knowone useing the road .
Are you saying that they said "they will ticket no-one" that is NOT ticket??
> cution here is that the road is the
> road if you have to go around an obsticle and in so doing you get on boslows
> property they will sight for tresspass.
The gate has an opening to the right of it large enough for a dirtbike.
> you do have every right to use the
> road right now and if i had a bike i would also.
So you're saying as of now I DO have a right to
use the road with my dirtbike? (the sign on the post
at the gate reads otherwise "No motor vehicles").
> have concidered doin the
> road w/o moveing any obstuctions in the jeep . the co. off highway coalition
> is a group of folks with atv's, bikes and jeeps. they now have a full time
> lawyer and he is workin on this we are awaiting a similar case to see the
> ruling. our case is incredably strong and we feel that the road will be
> reopened.
That's EXCELLENT news!
> we also feel that the segment that the county closed will also be
> reopened. please if you really would like to help do call me i have the need
> for a local like yourself vb
>
You'll be hearing from me soon, thanks very much. JD
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| The email that you posted above (once again, without the author's permission), was received during the time I was first trying to find out the _real_ status of that road. It was shortly after that when I contacted the Forest Service to get the official word on it, which I have abided by ever since. The fact that I contacted the Forest Service (Martha Moran, I believe it was) and gave them the maps I have is a matter of record.
Things are so easy to misconstrue (and mis-use) when taken out of context. So, G. F. Y., (good for you!).
Now, why don't you "back off" and go think about what I said about your KARMA. JD |
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| James - 4/9/2004 8:49 AM
If you think there is still not enough context, I'll post the entire series. I'll wait for your permission, because I'm a nice guy.
Well, it looks like you've just given a great example of how wrong your last sentence is (and the kind of a person you really are). JD |
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| Cleanbiker - 4/12/2004 12:05 AM
Things are so easy to misconstrue (and mis-use) when taken out of context. So, G. F. Y., (good for you!).
Now, why don't you "back off" and go think about what I said about your KARMA. JD
Man if somebody had the goods on me like that I would want them to back off too!!!
You come to a landowners forum and start attacking people and what do you expect.
This forum is for landowners trying to protect their property not for people who are trying
to figure out how to make the whole forrest their personal "back yard". These emails really
tell alot about the people were up against. Keep them coming. |
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| Things are so easy to misconstrue (and mis-use) when taken out of context. So, G. F. Y., (good for you!).
Now, why don't you "back off" and go think about what I said about your KARMA. JD
especially so with the internet--it must be true,i saw it on the internet!
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| go_buffs - 4/12/2004 7:05 AM
You come to a landowners forum and start attacking people and what do you expect.
I have attacked noone. I have only tried to defend myself and to tell the real story.
go_buffs - 4/12/2004 7:05 AM
This forum is for landowners trying to protect their property not for people who are trying
to figure out how to make the whole forrest their personal "back yard".
The above statement might be a little more "on the mark" if you took out the words
"not for people who..." and replaced that with "and..."
I just got off the phone with a Boulder County Sherriff's deputy about the legality (or lack thereof) of someone posting private correspondence in a public place without the author's permission.
Unless someone has any actual evidence (photos, witnesses) of me actually intentionally trespassing, or actually doing damage to the forest, (either of which is impossible since I have not), then the only possible crime I see going on here is the one being perped
by those who would try to slander my good name. I'm expecting a call back from someone else at the Sherriff's department later today. Maybe you should think twice before continuing to post your misinformation and trying to support it with out of context private correspondence (some written in a moment of frustration), without my permission. JD |
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| cleanbike, you seem to backpedal, dance and then change your story to try to come off as if you are on some higher ground, it's very unbecoming. You sound like a trespasser to me. |
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Cleanbiker - 4/12/2004 9:26 AM
I have attacked noone. I have only tried to defend myself and to tell the real story.
No, you came on this board and started calling people "fringe fruitcakes". Instead of defending yourself with facts, you immediately started calling people names. It is one thing to criticize behaviors, like I did, and quite another to defame people. The way you have tried to defend yourself is by trying to divert attention away from the facts and to try (unsuccessfully) to get people to tune out. You have admitted to being the author of the incriminating e-mails and of circulating a map that appears to be evidence of trespassing. Why are you attacking the messenger just for making the contents of your map and e-mails public?
go_buffs - 4/12/2004 7:05 AM
This forum is for landowners trying to protect their property not for people who are trying
to figure out how to make the whole forrest their personal "back yard".
Cleanbiker - 4/12/2004 9:26 AM
The above statement might be a little more "on the mark" if you took out the words
"not for people who..." and replaced that with "and..."
The only person I know who has referred to the forest as "my own back yard" is YOU! You act as if this true for the national forest (public land), but for private land as well. In fact, I think most people would agree that if I own and pay taxes on private property, I can call it my personal back yard and defend it as such. I would resent someone else referring to MY private property as THEIR own back yard. Yet that's exactly what you said in your e-mail to Vernon Brandt:
daspit@lasp.colorado.edu - Monday, July 23, 2001 4:21 PM
I will definitely give you a call within a few days. I'm an ATV, dirtbike
and 4WD owner, and definitely support the cause of keeping the
roads and trails open, especially "in my own back yard".
Cleanbiker - 4/12/2004 9:26 AM
I just got off the phone with a Boulder County Sherriff's deputy about the legality (or lack thereof) of someone posting private correspondence in a public place without the author's permission.
What law, specifically, do you think has been broken? Who owns e-mail? The person who sent it or the person who recieved it? Or either? Sorry, but the cat is out of the bag. Why are you so intent in keeping these e-mails secret? An old saying comes to mind "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
Cleanbiker - 4/12/2004 9:26 AM
Unless someone has any actual evidence (photos, witnesses) of me actually intentionally trespassing, or actually doing damage to the forest, (either of which is impossible since I have not), then the only possible crime I see going on here is the one being perped
by those who would try to slander my good name. I'm expecting a call back from someone else at the Sherriff's department later today. Maybe you should think twice before continuing to post your misinformation and trying to support it with out of context private correspondence (some written in a moment of frustration), without my permission. JD
If you were riding on the trails shown on your map (which you have admitted) then you were trespassing. I have not posted any misinformation here. If you think there is a law against my continuing to post correspondence that was given to me, then your next move would be to file a restraining order in order to suppress the facts and hide what you have said and done. |
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| James - 4/12/2004 7:19 PM
...started calling people "fringe fruitcakes".
Yeah, that's before I found out
who you
really are. JD |
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| Cleanbiker - 4/12/2004 9:26 AM
I just got off the phone with a Boulder County Sherriff's deputy about the legality (or lack thereof) of someone posting private correspondence in a public place without the author's permission.
Cleanbiker you are a piece of work. First you fight peoples constitutional right to own and be secure in their property by claiming other peples property as your own back yard and now you are trying to keep poeple from exersizing their first amendment right to speak out agaisnt what you are doing. What country do you think this is? |
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| For the record, and for the sake of any local landowners who might happen to be reading this thread,
just one more short post from JD. (If you're sending out copies of my emails, be sure to include this one too.) Here's an email that should put everything into
the proper "context", dated early September 2001:
From: Martha Moran, USFS
To: John Daspit
DATE: 9/7/2001
Hello JD,
Our fellow Lefthand Canyon OHV grant supporters ... wanted to let you know about this upcoming meeting next Tuesday and hope you can go to it to share your thoughts and concerns.
Also I received your GPS map from Ridge Dorsey last night and our statewide OHV crew is arriving next friday and will be contacting you for more information to help in our project to get the existing use information we need.
Hope you can make it JD!
Martha Moran
Recreation
Boulder Ranger District
Arapaho-Roosevelt NF
303.541.2510
mmoran@fs.fed.us |
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| Oh yeah, and this one from Vernon Brandt to me on
7/23/2001--
would not go around the gate. there are 2 segments to this road the gate
that just went up is close to the cal woods place the road runs down the
hill and there is a "circle drive" there. that part has been closed by the
county and right now that is a legal closer. the other segment runs from
that circle to hiway 7. ....
To all, Peace. Ahimsa. JD |
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| ... to save anyone from having to look it up:
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/teachings/ahimsa.htm |
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| Thanks for the information. It is always good to have actual evidence instead of the "he said, she said" crap that has been going around.
It looks like she is thanking you for a map you sent her about the Lefthand Canyon OHV Grant. Did the map you sent to her include the Lefthand Canyon OHV area? Did it show a track through Dene Sapp's property? If so, it looks like Mr. Sapp might have a pretty good defense that the district ranger knew about trespassing on his property but did not do anything about it. How would a person go about getting a copy of the map you sent to Ridge Dorsey?
Cleanbiker - 4/14/2004 5:41 PM
For the record, and for the sake of any local landowners who might happen to be reading this thread,
just one more short post from JD. (If you're sending out copies of my emails, be sure to include this one too.) Here's an email that should put everything into
the proper "context", dated early September 2001:
From: Martha Moran, USFS
To: John Daspit
DATE: 9/7/2001
Hello JD,
Our fellow Lefthand Canyon OHV grant supporters ... wanted to let you know about this upcoming meeting next Tuesday and hope you can go to it to share your thoughts and concerns.
Also I received your GPS map from Ridge Dorsey last night and our statewide OHV crew is arriving next friday and will be contacting you for more information to help in our project to get the existing use information we need.
Hope you can make it JD!
Martha Moran
Recreation
Boulder Ranger District
Arapaho-Roosevelt NF
303.541.2510
mmoran@fs.fed.us |
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Veteran
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| Thanks for the information. It is always good to have actual evidence instead of the "he said, she said" crap that has been going around.
It looks like she is thanking you for a map you sent her about the Lefthand Canyon OHV Grant. Did the map you sent to her include the Lefthand Canyon OHV area? Did it show a track through Dene Sapp's property? If so, it looks like Mr. Sapp might have a pretty good defense that the district ranger knew about trespassing on his property but did not do anything about it. How would a person go about getting a copy of the map you sent to Ridge Dorsey?
Cleanbiker - 4/14/2004 5:41 PM
For the record, and for the sake of any local landowners who might happen to be reading this thread,
just one more short post from JD. (If you're sending out copies of my emails, be sure to include this one too.) Here's an email that should put everything into
the proper "context", dated early September 2001:
From: Martha Moran, USFS
To: John Daspit
DATE: 9/7/2001
Hello JD,
Our fellow Lefthand Canyon OHV grant supporters ... wanted to let you know about this upcoming meeting next Tuesday and hope you can go to it to share your thoughts and concerns.
Also I received your GPS map from Ridge Dorsey last night and our statewide OHV crew is arriving next friday and will be contacting you for more information to help in our project to get the existing use information we need.
Hope you can make it JD!
Martha Moran
Recreation
Boulder Ranger District
Arapaho-Roosevelt NF
303.541.2510
mmoran@fs.fed.us |
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| These are all very good questions!
And, maybe you finally have got my point!......
IT IS NOT TRESPASSING if you're on a route that has been in "traditional use" since anyone can remember, if a road that has been assigned a number (in this particular instance), and is not marked, fenced, gated, or otherwise indicated as being off-limits to travel!
Hey, James, I suspect that it's entirely possible that there's a really nice guy behind all this facade, and if you ever want to get together, in person, and just talk, let me know. We might not agree on everything, but maybe some day we might even be friends, or at least
good neighbors.
JD |
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| Cleanbiker - 4/14/2004 8:17 PM
These are all very good questions!
And, maybe you finally have got my point!......
IT IS NOT TRESPASSING if you're on a route that has been in "traditional use" since anyone can remember, if a road that has been assigned a number (in this particular instance), and is not marked, fenced, gated, or otherwise indicated as being off-limits to travel!
Hey, James, I suspect that it's entirely possible that there's a really nice guy behind all this facade, and if you ever want to get together, in person, and just talk, let me know. We might not agree on everything, but maybe some day we might even be friends, or at least
good neighbors.
JD
O.K. I am glad we are finally talking. I would still like you to answer my question about whether the map that Martha Moran was referring to had the trail through Dene Sapp's place. As far as your position about what is trespassing, I suggest you consult with a good attorney about the details of what it takes to get a public prescriptive easement. There is nothing in Colorado statutes that says anything about the assignment of numbers. Some bureaucrat map maker assigns numbers, and the forest service has no jurisdiction over private property. What would you do if you picked up the lastest quad and there was a newly numbered road along your driveway, without due process? That's just not the way things work. Dene Sapp was victimized by something like this.
If you consult with an attorney, he will tell you that it is virtually impossible to get a prescriptive easement over open land without fences gates or signs. Here in CO, there is a 20-year test, but that is not the only requirement. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the person claiming an easement, not on the person who holds title. There are proper legal ways to get easements (the court system) and there are improper ways (vigilante attacks and midnight vandalism).
You are correct that I am a nice guy who copped an attitude. I don't think you would have sent the link on Ahimsa if you didn't at least try to live by that philosophy, which sure beats the Biblical "eye-for-an-eye"! If that is true you cannot be a bad person, only flawed. You need to understand that your ally, Mr. Brandt, is guilty of wanton Himsa. His constant calling people liars, cowards, perjurers, cheaters, etc. is Himsa of the worst kind. I have been guilty of a milder form of Himsa, I admit. "When a man beats you with a stick, you should not entertain any thought of retaliation or any unkind feeling towards the tormentor. Ahimsa is the perfection of forgiveness." This is a good, but can anybody less than Ghandhi really do this? Can you? Maybe you are trying.
Your acceptence of Mr. Brandt's actions is indirect Himsa. Why have you not spoken out against his Himsa against others, which has been many times harsher than the Himsa I directed at you. |
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| OK. We're talking like civil people. Let's do it in person, man-to-man sometime. You have some good points, and I think that I have some too. It was a numbered route that went around FAirview Peak, and it had been in use for decades. It went through enough of a "process" to make it onto the first maps posted in the kiosks when they first went up. I sincerely hope that we all work this out in an equitable and proper manner (and CIVILized manner) eventually. Let's not beat this horse here any longer. Let's talk, in person, any time. Have a nice day (really!). JD |
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| The map that was posted on the kiosks came from you? Was your map the one that was posted, or did the US forest service re-draw it? I would like to see your version, because I don't think it is the same one that I have. Where can I obtain a copy? Can it be posted on your site, Mr. Cloud? Can Cleanbiker send you a copy?
Yes, civil speech is better. I do hope that Mr Brandt can learn from our example.
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| Did the map go up on the kiosks BEFORE, or AFTER the tree destruction incident? |
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| It's my understanding that the first maps put up in the kiosks were ones drawn up by the FS. I don't know how much of my map they considered in drawing it up. They went up a while BEFORE the tree-downing incident. I'd be glad to give you (in person or via. US Postal Service) a copy of the map I sent them.
I'll finish with one of my favorite quotes, from Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along with each other?
Take care, JD |
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Location: Boulder, CO | Okay, I've put up an albums feature to be found in the upper right with quotes and control panel. Try it. |
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| O.K., I am taking your move toward civility to heart, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give you a free pass on the discussion at hand.
You seem to be contradicting yourself with these two statements:
Cleanbiker - 4/15/2004 4:38 AM
It went through enough of a "process" to make it onto the first maps posted in the kiosks when they first went up.
JD
Cleanbiker - 4/15/2004 8:39 AM
It's my understanding that the first maps put up in the kiosks were ones drawn up by the FS. I don't know how much of my map they considered in drawing it up.
What I would really like to know (and have asked several times) is if your map showed a public road or trail through Dene Sapp's place. I would love to see a copy, but I understand that these maps are probably not something you want to continue to circulate. How many maps were there? I'm still not sure that the one I have is the same one you are talking about.
I am really disturbed by some of the ugly things that are being said about the Sapp family. For one thing, this man is not guilty until proven to be guilty in a court of law. The statement that he allegedly killed 346 old-growth trees is false. The majority were small, and even the largest could not be old-growth because this is not an old-growth forest.
Another reason I dislike the mean-spirited talk is that Dene just lost everything in the overland fire. For another, his mother just died two months ago:
http://www.windsortribune.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1540
So please practice Ahimsa when it comes to Dene Sapp. |
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| Everyone I know feels sorry for (and should rightfully feel sorry for) ANYONE who has lost their home or property to a fire, regardless of who they are. Anyone with a shread of empathy and humanity feels that way.
I have no way of knowing how the map you have compares to my maps. My offer still stands, I'll be glad to show you my map, and I'd certainly be interested in seeing the one you have (one of mine???, I can't tell unless I've seen it).
First of all, to clarify (and correct) some of the statements and implications you've made in the past: My maps are NOT maps "of routes that I have ridden my motorcycle on". As I have said in the past, they are maps made up of SOME motorcycle rides, some mountain bike rides,
some hikes (I have a velcro patch on my hat that I stick the GPS antenna on), some drawn from memory and not directly from the GPS (with varying accuracy), and SOME were GIVEN to me by friends to add to my database (of rides and/or hikes), and those especially I cannot "vouch for" the accuracy of. What I CAN say is that NONE of the routes on the maps that _I_ took required going through any gates, past any fences, signs, or other indicators at the time which said that it was private property.
As for the maps that were put up in the kiosks, you'll have to contact the Forest Service to find out the particulars of the maps that they used, which maps were put up when, and where those maps indicated the road going to (or through). Hopefully that clarifies things. Feel free to PM (personal message) or email me if I can provide any more details.
I think that I've (we've) "hogged" this forum a bit too much lately, and maybe other landowners might like to use it to discuss their other issues. Feel free to contact me personally at any time. JD |
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| Golly, I hate to interrupt a good (long-running) argument that appears to be going nowhere, but I would like to visit with anyone having an educated opinion concerning Kit Laney's situation.
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| mailto:cjjeepercreeper@sisna.com
this guy can hep ya |
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Hyde Park Forums by www.darkendeavors.com
Papa Pilgrim, Kit Laney, and Dean Sapp: heros of property rights
